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Rant about these beat battles


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#91 HUNGRYMAN

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 02:46 PM

I'm just wondering how this is ever gonna get in the deciding phase...

So the winner has to make a samplepack HM? ... seems like too much effort...
Where's the Fun in 45 second beats?

1 sample. and more challenging rules... those two are the only realistically feasable ideas...
... what was the objective again!?? ;)

I'm just floating ideas out that everyone has posted so far.

A sample pack could be something with a few cut loops from where ever (different songs or the same, but actually samples), some drumloops and/or single shot drums or other single shot samples or loops. ODK has put a few together before but they contained entire songs also. I'm just suggesting short samples instead of posting a entire track as a "sample".

Haha, yeah. 45 secs is short, but making people have to cram what they want to do in a short time, would have to force some creativity. I guess the thought behind this is also getting more people to vote if they could listen to everything in a shorter time.

Objective for these ideas or objective pertaining to the actually battle? I guess the objective for these ideas were to get people to vote for the "best" beat out of the battle. By making it harder and more "bare bones" it would be easier to judge and vote by seeing what everyone started with, especially the same exact material, instead of people picking different parts from a large audio pool.

#92 HUNGRYMAN

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 02:49 PM

i've seen the SPMB's do some interesting battles...they call 'em "Sample Challenges", where you have to flip crazy shit...like for example, you get like a 10 second clip of Hank Hill talking from KOTH and you have to turn that into a beat without outside anything (including bass/drums/cuts/etc.)...now while that particular battle was a little too minimalistic for my tastes, i think that's an interesting idea to work with...we haven't had a "no outside drums" rule since....ever? idk, there probably was one down the line somewhere. i just wasn't around for it, i've only been around here since #300.

Yeah, they do some tough battles over there. Usually with only the sample provided.

#93 James Frank.

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 02:58 PM

Yeah, they do some tough battles over there. Usually with only the sample provided.


although, the samples they post are usually like 10 minute opuses complete with soloed bass instruments, drum breaks, opera vocals and a bunch of other crazy shit...so there's that haha.

#94 Beatronome

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 03:39 PM

I, and a lot of others who voiced their frustration here, happen to think there is a problem... That's the whole point. Many of us are going crazy over this. Maybe you don't care that much about it, but a lot of us do. I don't think you are considering this thing as a group.

I don't really consider these battles as something I need to win in order to grow as a producer; the beauty of the battles is hearing other peoples flips and getting respect from peers. I voted most of the times when I could cause if no one votes that kind of defeats the purpose of the battle format, but you also have to consider that for most of the producers on here, these beat battles are something they do in their spare time, picking a winner is, in essence, just something extra to decide who picks the sample for the week after.

The only time I "won" a battle was when someone didn't vote and the winner from the week before had stated in the rules that voting was obligatory. I can tell you that there really is no pride, or whatever you're looking for, in winning in such a manner. The only thing that happens is you take some shine of a legit victory by saying "oh sorry, you didn't vote". That will be the only effect, you can't MAKE people change their attitude towards something they do in their spare time by imposing rules. A rule isn't really an incentive in a free online battle now is it?
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#95 Heavy Drama

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 04:06 PM

(skip to the Solution if you're fed up or too lazy to endure more "talk" in this thread)

After 3 years of being here I can tell you that no one rule can force or encourage anyone to be any more involved than they already feel to be...it is human nature some people care and others don't and some are here for none music related reasons so there is nothing you can do to force or encourage people to listen/comment/vote...you can't control people you're not Rupert Murdoch.

Everything mentioned here regarding rule changes has been tried but has always failed because of the above reason.

Allow me to clarify one of the reoccurring suggestions in this thread.....

"No vote=no entry" can be added and may discourage a few law abiding citizens from entering but it won't make a difference to the 50 or so people who upload their beats to the group just to get promotion or because they're new or any other reason and since you can not enforce this rule until after the vote is complete it makes no sense....adding "No vote=no entry and ban (without valid excuse)" is childish at best and extremely problematic because it is highly subjective and no one person or group has the authority to determine what is or is not a valid reason for not voting, as well as the fact that if one of the "stronger" producers in the group makes a mistake and forgets to vote banning them will only weaken the overall standard thus defeating the purpose of the rule and the whole point of this thread. -_-

4 pages of "talk" and basically you guys have come to the conclusion that recent winners have lacked the creativity to make their sample/rule choices interesting or challenging enough to encourage only serious beat makers THIS imo is because most winners especially first timers don't understand or are ever encouraged to make it exciting they just copy the week before and the cycle continues.

Solution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have it clearly stated in both the sample thread and the voting thread that the new winner must be creative with their choices and crucially must make the next round completely different from the previous thus eliminating the cycle of reoccurring choices. Added help would be to include all the suggestions laid in these threads for example...different time signatures, different themes, sample packs, different lengths of sample, no added anything blah blah blah the point being to inform and encourage the winner that the possibilities are limitless but that they must be different from the previous week.

The way you get this started and to work is,,,,,,, every week there is at least one person who counts the votes and alerts the new winner that they have won while everyone else usually comes by at some point to see if they've won or just to get the new sample so in doing so you can all re-enforce the new "rules" and after a few weeks the new format will be the standard and folks will know that if they win they will have to switch it up and if they are new one of the group will alert them to it.

This is something everyone can be involved in and is positive progress for everyone as a group. It will weed out the weaker casual participants and encourage everyone else to step their game up.

Just my opinion but since I'm struggling to find the time to enter and win one of these battles to enforce my will that way and I am only seeing debate on trite facts and no real solutions I may elect myself Barack O'Drama of the STBB and enforce this change upon you and drone anyone's future submissions who care to defy me.

GOD BLESS SOUTH AMERICA!!!!!

#96 Perfect 5th

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 08:00 PM

Might as well chime in. Been following this post, some I agree with, some not so much. One of the things that bugs me the most is the lack of following the stated rules. Example: 2 min time limit - winning track 3:45. No outside instruments - winning track full of outside instruments. I follow the stated rules with every track I submit (and only submit when I am happy wiht something, not just half way stuff) and it is frustrating when others don't.

#97 James Frank.

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 08:28 PM

Might as well chime in. Been following this post, some I agree with, some not so much. One of the things that bugs me the most is the lack of following the stated rules. Example: 2 min time limit - winning track 3:45. No outside instruments - winning track full of outside instruments. I follow the stated rules with every track I submit (and only submit when I am happy wiht something, not just half way stuff) and it is frustrating when others don't.


i agree.

#98 Speekless

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 12:44 AM

I don't really consider these battles as something I need to win in order to grow as a producer; the beauty of the battles is hearing other peoples flips and getting respect from peers. I voted most of the times when I could cause if no one votes that kind of defeats the purpose of the battle format, but you also have to consider that for most of the producers on here, these beat battles are something they do in their spare time, picking a winner is, in essence, just something extra to decide who picks the sample for the week after.

The only time I "won" a battle was when someone didn't vote and the winner from the week before had stated in the rules that voting was obligatory. I can tell you that there really is no pride, or whatever you're looking for, in winning in such a manner. The only thing that happens is you take some shine of a legit victory by saying "oh sorry, you didn't vote". That will be the only effect, you can't MAKE people change their attitude towards something they do in their spare time by imposing rules. A rule isn't really an incentive in a free online battle now is it?


And so it is for me... where did I, or anyone for that matter, say they need to win this battle in order to grow as a producer? I do this in my spare time as well. And I still think it's only a question of respect to go vote if you take part. More respect/involvement = better community = ultimately better beats. If I follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion, why not scrap voting altogether? Exactly... cause this is still a battle. And voting, just as a feedback, still is important. It just sucks for all of us when 60% of the people don't bother.

Now Heavy Drama's point-of-view about the problem with enforcing the rule, NOW we talking. Only decent argument I've seen until now. But this is my opinion:

"No vote=no entry and ban (without valid excuse)" is childish at best and extremely problematic because it is highly subjective and no one person or group has the authority to determine what is or is not a valid reason for not voting, as well as the fact that if one of the "stronger" producers in the group makes a mistake and forgets to vote banning them will only weaken the overall standard thus defeating the purpose of the rule and the whole point of this thread. -_-


I say no vote = no entry (if no valid excuse), and banning if repeated 3 times.

I get your point, and it is subjective what a valid reason for not voting is, but it's not necessarily problematic at all.

Why not say: Any excuse is good, but do post about it in the voting thread? Hell, I wouldn't even mind if someone said "I can't vote, i'm hanging out with my girflriend and I can't be bothered". At least he would've taken the time and respect to let his fellow peers know. I mean, I voted JonWayne last week...

This rule is enforceable, as long as somebody keeps track of it. I'm willing to do so. Also, 3 times would leave enough room for everybody to be lazy sometime, or for someone to forget it. We could even reset the quota every year or something. Thing is all the entries who only go posting tracks for plays/comments/follows and never bother with this forum would be filtered out.

To say that this is childish is also highly subjective ;) Why not have a vote on this? (a-hum...) For real. We could post this question in a separate thread (just for sake of clarity), leave it open for 2 weeks, get as many producers as possible to vote, and see how many ppl say yay or no? A bunch have already taken position on this thread. If the majority is against, I rest my case.

#99 Yvon

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 03:13 AM

I don't have time to read everything right now so maybe i will be off topic or I will repeat something somebody wrote. Sorry if it is the case.

Anyway, the rule "you post / you vote" could be inverted as something like "you voted so now you can post". If you want to make a submission you have to make sure that you did vote for the preceding battle. In this way, voting is the key to enter those battles. As many people will plan to submit again and again, we all are going to be willing to listen and vote and get our tickets for the next round.. Plus it will make clear to the newcomers that there are some rules, some spirit, respect and so on during battles.
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#100 JoaGymshoe

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 05:45 AM

I don't have time to read everything right now so maybe i will be off topic or I will repeat something somebody wrote. Sorry if it is the case.

Anyway, the rule "you post / you vote" could be inverted as something like "you voted so now you can post". If you want to make a submission you have to make sure that you did vote for the preceding battle. In this way, voting is the key to enter those battles. As many people will plan to submit again and again, we all are going to be willing to listen and vote and get our tickets for the next round.. Plus it will make clear to the newcomers that there are some rules, some spirit, respect and so on during battles.


That's a great idea..... any- and everybody can enforce it coz it's clear to see who did and didn't vote...
Only thing is you can Just vote for anybody for voting sake... but we need to have a little faith in humanity I suppose ;)

Together with some more interesting flipping rules things should get to a higher level...

#101 ODK

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 05:54 AM

Okay so some really good points shall we start filtering the ideas down to make it simple and clear in another topic. As far as I'm concerned, this needs to take time so it's done well.

#102 Beatronome

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 07:02 AM

And so it is for me... where did I, or anyone for that matter, say they need to win this battle in order to grow as a producer? I do this in my spare time as well. And I still think it's only a question of respect to go vote if you take part. More respect/involvement = better community = ultimately better beats. If I follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion, why not scrap voting altogether? Exactly... cause this is still a battle. And voting, just as a feedback, still is important. It just sucks for all of us when 60% of the people don't bother.

I did not say you or anyone said it, I didn't even say what you assume I said, I was just saying what my view was on the battles, because I don't really get what you guys consider to be a problem. And I also stated why voting was useful. Just because it's useful doesn't mean it should be obligatory.

I don't get why you're frustrated because "60% of the people don't vote" but that's probably just me.

Also, if there really are "a lot of people" feeling this way, it can't be too hard to just enforce the rule by letting last weeks winner decide every time again.

#103 Tastik BEATS

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 05:03 PM

I agree with Speekless on all of this, I've only done one beat battle because other times I either haven't had the time to make a good beat, didn't feel like it or have tried and it wasn't up to scratch. I know people say they rushed their beats and they just want feedback but why not just wait until next week and put enough time and effort in to create something original so you can be judged properly at the best of your abilities? I'm not saying everything you produce has to be the best thing ever but if it's not finished or you're not happy with it don't put it out there


How can we filter people aren't trying

Maybe make it you can only enter every third week or something so that when the time comes hey put all there effort in to the beat instead of being lazy

#104 James Frank.

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 07:01 PM

I say no vote = no entry (if no valid excuse), and banning if repeated 3 times.


i'd like to reiterate my point by saying, "let's not take this too seriously".
first of all, i don't even think anyone here has the authority to actually ban people, and if they do then that just goes back to what i was saying about us being careful to not turn this into a fascist regime... this is supposed to be fun and friendly, not some place where contributors are under the threat of being banned for something as dumb as not voting. you guys should be glad so many want to participate, and if you feel like the quality's going down then bring some heat yourself and let these young cats realize that the bar's being raised rapidly, and they need to follow suit or else be left in the dust. i like Yvon's idea though.

#105 HUNGRYMAN

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 07:37 PM

I'm all for disqualifying, but still think banning is a little harsh. I'd imagine if someone continues to get disqualified, then that might discourage them anyways.

Yeah, I think Yvon has the best idea so far for tightening up participation. It would make it where newcomers have to scope out the battle before just jumping in.
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#106 HUNGRYMAN

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 09:30 PM

I don't get why you're frustrated because "60% of the people don't vote" but that's probably just me.


From counts I did here and there over the summer, I'd say 65%-75% average is more accurate (Even seen as high 80 something %). This past battle was the largest this year at 147 entries (on time) and 53 votes (on time) = 64% non-voters. Which is actually wrong, because one guy had 2 entries and another had 3 entries, so minus 3 (144 legit entries). Then I counted 4 people that voted but didn't enter (49 votes from entries), so out of 144 ---> 95 people who entered didn't vote (66%). Not trying to split hairs, but I'd be happy with 50% full participation.

Haha! Let me know if yall need a detail man.

#107 ODK

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 01:41 AM

ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
Positive Idea's only from this point on, no more opinion motivated, I got the last word, need to check the forum quickly, to see if anyone has reacted to my comments behaviour. So as I have said before, lets filter the ideas down that work. The handbags at dawn phase is done !!!!

#108 AtomHeartMoo

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 10:42 AM

"the new winner must be creative with their choices and crucially must make the next round completely different from the previous thus eliminating the cycle of reoccurring choices. Added help would be to include all the suggestions laid in these threads for example...different time signatures, different themes, sample packs, different lengths of sample, no added anything blah blah blah the point being to inform and encourage the winner that the possibilities are limitless but that they must be different from the previous week."

this is a good start.
also, drum samples should be included.
and, thought i'm against synths and instruments i think it would be fine to leave only 1 open and not both at the same time.
another thing i like that has been done before, if you leave external instrument open, you need to specify wich type of instrument it is.. like strings, brass, percussion.. but limit it to a certain sample time. otherwise people would cop out an entire song lol

#109 Speekless

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 02:59 PM

I also like Yvon's idea, good alternative. As far as the rules go, Heavy Drama summed it up pretty well. Lots of ideas here but bottom line is we should encourage the winner to choose more creative rules, so posting that in the sample/voting thread could be a good start,. Seems like everybody's up on this so let's just do it. We could sum up all the rule ideas in a thread or smthg, I dunno if or what's the best way.

More ideas, some have been done a few times:
- tempo change
- needs to be a variaton every other bar (nothing ever loops completely the same)
- no quantizing
- drums must be chopped from a break (no individual sample pack sounds)
- must include at least 3 different sections
- certain style: e.g. make some Boombap, or a DJ Premier-type joint, something Funky, some 80's stuff, some House as the llama said
- include something personal (sample your own voice, you playing an instrument or whatever)

#110 Grifty-Rodriguez

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 03:02 PM

how about this. right now rules say "winner MAY change rules". change it have it say "winner MUST come up with at least one custom rule"
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#111 ODK

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 03:06 PM

how about this. right now rules say "winner MAY change rules". change it have it say "winner MUST come up with at least one custom rule"

Ooooh that would sort it !!! I like that Holmes!!

#112 4444

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 12:32 AM

Create your own drums from scratch, bounce your track to cassette/VHS (while forbidding use of the obvious Ruff Draft vocal sample)...

#113 illiptic

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:47 PM

I wold love to participate in a battle in which you can ONLY use the given samples...meaning no outside drums, instruments or anything....with the given samples including some drums to chop up. That would be a true challenge and force everyone to think creatively in order to come up with something interesting.....hope that happens at some point!

And yes I love idea of having custom crazy rules like you guys were talking about above.

I honestly don't care if I ever win one of these, because getting to hear how many different ways you guys flip the samples is extremely valuable to me, not to mention how awesome it is that you guys are willing to give me feedback on my stuff.

344 straight weeks is pretty damn impressive. Even though I am brand new to this community, I am very happy to be here learning from all the exceptional producers that participate.

Til next week....




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