Posted 06 August 2013 - 05:22 PM
Get your kicks in now, boys and girls...
cause they're planning on shutting this shit DOWN by any means necessary apparently.
I wonder what the future of the beat battles and 90% of these threads will look like if this BS actually gets legislated.
I wonder how Netflix, YouTube, Hulu, HBO Go, Xbox Live, etc. will look like when you can be incarcerated for "criminal streaming" of a fucking copyrighted work, regardless of context or intent. Corporate greed and bureaucratic red tape are single-handedly impeding humanity's progress by making any innovation or derivation from others' works impossible...I swear, it's like we're living a real-life version of Brazil and 1984 mixed with Mike Judge's Idiocracy. Thoughts, STMB?
Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:05 PM
Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:23 PM
Not to play the devils advocate, but unauthorized streaming is generally taking money from the artist.
not necessarily. as i'm sure you're well aware of, the original artist may not even have the rights to their own work--meaning that the label they had done business with is the official owner of the music, and the sole party that can sue if they see fit. furthermore, those rights can be sold to whoever at any time past the original date of the work up until 70 years after the artist's death (as we saw with the whole MJ/Beatles debacle)...so a lot of these small labels that producers and DJ's like us tend to sample may now have had their entire catalogs bought up by larger corporations and special interest groups, who are now looking to make every penny back on their investment by re-releasing shitty compilations and watered-down versions of once-popular hit songs (that's where we see a lot of these weird sideways covers of like Bob Marley tracks and shit)...so at the end of the day, it's these already profitable corporations that specialize in this re-packaging biz that can claim "infringement" on their bought "rights", not the artists themselves.
and i also refuse to believe that "streaming", i.e. listening, to an artist's work is taking $ from their pockets. if it weren't for torrents, i would have never gambled on listening to an album like Madvillainy, which i ended up liking so much that i am now a lifetime supporter of anything ST-related...you can't get those kind of results without the ability to let people actually listen to the music in the first place. & on another note, they're bending their definitions of "streaming" to fit not just music, but video content as well...meaning you could potentially be arrested and charged with a felony for borrowing your cousin's Xbox Live password to watch stuff on his/her Netflix account, as if that holds the same weight as pirating DVD's and bootlegging them on the streets.
Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:42 AM
Then there's the side of it discussed in the MMS #13 booklet, that we get to be exposed to so much more amazing music thanks to copyright infringement. Which is true, I'm sure most of the people here, myself definitely included, were able to discover and actually possess/listen to stuff that we may have gone our whole lives without finding thanks to this new era.
But watching this all evolve over the years, I can't help but feel like it contributed heavily to a culture of "immediate satisfaction", where we've become conditioned to feel that it's our RIGHT to have whatever art we want at little to no charge, right when we decide we want it. Musicians can fallback to a certain extent on live performance, but films don't have that option and it forces artists to have to live on the road to pay the bills. Obviously there needs to be a balance, people shouldn't be put in JAIL over this shit (and to be honest, it'll probably stay alive in some form or another), but i think the notion that nobody suffers from this is except greedy execs isn't exactly true. Just try to put up a ST track on youtube and see what I mean.
Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:22 PM
But it also sucks reading these people with the high-horse attitude that just because they have a high speed internet connection that they deserve free music/movies/news, acting like their rights are being violated when they can't stream a movie online, or bitching about a copyright strike when they carelessly posted someone's album on youtube.
Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:23 PM
There isn't any at all what so ever. A good example of this is the UK pound notes, take the time out to read any of them and you will find the word" I promise to pay the bearer the sum of". Read this correctly and you will suddenly realize, this means " I owe you ". The paper and coins we use to pay for food bills etc, are in fact " I owe you " notes. You haven't paid for anything, just in agreement that you own the owner of the product, credit somehow. There is not enough printed paper to cover the amount of so called money globally, they cover this amazingly well with credit cards, debit cards, that are literally digits on a computer database, these can be changed very easily. Now I have explained that how can anyone have ownership over anything, really think about this one, because you can't.
Those Fat cat corporations just want our money, and quite frankly, they fuck my planet up, so I'll take what I enjoy from them, all of the bullshit on this planet with money, ownership, etc will come to an end, and it will happen when we are alive. Everything has to go back to being Independent, self maintained within a balanced community, that were part of bringing this Horror show on earth to an end. Just have a think about, no money existing in any form, no contracts, no being fake to a so called boss because you know they have the power to fuck you up, by firing you. Don't get me wrong I'm like James I'll torrent, and if it's good they will get my cash, otherwise it get's deleted, was no different back in the day you would record albums off of vinyl or tape for friends, and they would eventually purchase it, and become a fan, and then go to gigs and support the artist. The end of the day though how the hell do you own something you can see or hear, you can't !! it's just waveforms resonating at a certain frequency. I'm all about giving my beats away and making tunes for people for free, I have no issue with that at all, just more bothered about making someone smile, rather than making everyone shit scared your going sue them for listening to sound. The Nazi movement never disappeared, it just hid behind a curtain laughing at the control it has, wouldn't surpise me if it was that twat drummer from Metallica or Paul McCartney that have winged about it, obviously the millions they already have isn't enough, but it's okay they're just "I owe you" notes, so there's nothing to worry about really.
Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:34 PM
ODK, why don't you do something about it and go live off your own hands in the forest?
Posted 07 August 2013 - 01:12 PM
all of the bullshit on this planet with money, ownership, etc will come to an end, and it will happen when we are alive.
^I hope so but hasn't this been going on forever. They will figure out how people are stealing from them, make it illegal, and then we will find some other way to get the stuff we want for free. If you want to rip people off all the time you have to adapt every once in a while or they will catch on.
Posted 07 August 2013 - 01:36 PM
- James Frank. likes this
Posted 07 August 2013 - 02:25 PM
money and ownership won't be coming to an end within our lifetimes, and if they did, it would be in a situation where probably about 3/4th of us would already be dead from some apocalypse event. there's nothing fascist about the notion of personal property or working for a living, which is what artists are attempting to do. You're pointing at some vague idea of "Corporations", connecting dots between poisoning the environment and you paying for entertainment that just aren't there. Streaming stuff isn't going to "bring down the system" in the way that you are looking for, it's just going to restrict labels and film production companies from taking chances on stuff because they cannot afford to. All we'll see in theaters will be The Avengers PT 7 and all we'll see at best buy is Lil Wayne and Taylor Swift because these are what actually sells, what's rewarded in a system like this. People hip enough to like interesting shit are also hip enough to get that shit for free. Not to mention that the overseas markets are determining more and more of what gets produced, because here we don't pay for shit anymore. And then there will be no more movie theaters and no more record stores, it'll all be on the computer, where the artist gets bled dry on a minimum payscale. $.0000001 per stream.
What people seem to forget is that there wasn't anything inherently wrong with the system we had in place, in fact it was working out great for artists of all kinds. Yeah, and you could even tape some shit and then share it with your friends. But you COULDN'T tape some shit for free then instantly send that tape to millions of people. The capability of people to get their music out into the world via streaming IS a HUGELY positive advancement, as it allows amateurs the ability to launch themselves. Imagine if there were streaming mixtapes when Prince Paul couldn't get Gravediggaz financed!? But there has to be a limit (like the prohibition of involuntary streaming of content that people put time, money [albeit semi-invisible, nonexistent money] and effort into), because the numbers don't lie, it's killing industries left and right. If you're content to give all your personally-made music away for free forever, then it's probably because you're A) young, B, trying to break out and really want someone, anyone, to listen to it AND C), you have a decent job that supports your existence, and you make music in spare time. Madlib, for example, spends a majority of his time honing his craft, as do many serious musicians, and wouldn't be able to do what he does if he needed to work a full-time job to support himself and his family.
I'm all for mom-and-pop, grassroots, local stores, featuring local talent and all that. they got choked out and we deserve to have em back. But WE are also partly to blame for that, it's not ALL the corporations faults. and I hate them goddamn corporations too bud. But the idea that the only way back is if we burn the economic structure to the ground and start up from anarchy is ludicrous and lazy. You should have to BUY that Rock Konducta 7" you want to hear so bad, that way Madlib can eat, that way he can make us more music. and what do you care anyway, money isn't real.
- Beatronome likes this
Posted 07 August 2013 - 03:12 PM
- SwampThing likes this
Posted 07 August 2013 - 05:14 PM
artists like Madlib, DOOM, Jay Dee, the typical "gods" of hip-hop we all clamor over, are among the people who i am more than willing to pay hard-earned $ for whenever they release pretty much anything (obviously in Yancey's case i'm talking posthumous releases).
but i'm not going to do the same for every. single. thing. that i am exposed to on a daily basis. i'm a college student who makes less per hour than your average entry-level Wal-Mart employee, i'm not made of cash. and for the little pleasures and bits of happiness i get in my life, a lot of them come from discovering a new album or finding a movie i've never watched before that i can analyze and interpret in my own works as a film major...what this legislation is attempting to do is squash that little bit of sunshine in my life like a diseased cockroach, and label me as a fucking FELON that could potentially serve jail-time for the harmless downloading of acapellas and other sound clips off of YouTube. i really don't mess with torrenting very much, and when i do its usually for an album that i don't care enough to actually pay money to buy. i tried being a good little boy and shelling out my $ before letting myself listen to an album, and you know what i got? Yeezus...that should say it right there, lol.
so i feel no remorse for major corporations, aka the ones pulling the strings regarding this piece of legislation they're trying to pass...people on this thread seem to be misinterpreting this indifference toward EMI and Capitol as a slight to our brethren here on small, indie labels like ST, Brainfeeder, Lex, Warp, etc...which just isn't the case. it doesn't seem like a lot of us on here are understanding the big picture here, that our government is just looking for shit to tag you with to try and make everyone a criminal. i'm not a conspiracy theorist, but i do think its odd how much big govt. has ADAMANTLY come crashing down on all of our freedoms within the past ten or so years, and that its now getting to the point where you can't smoke in your own house and you can be completely stripped of your livelihood for admitting to have used offensive language TWENTY YEARS ago (*cough* Paula Deen *cough*)...i'm not saying it's all going to hell. but look at the film Idiocracy and compare it to a lot of what's going on today, and tell me that the real world isn't headed down that direction of reverse-evolution and systematic tyranny being welcomed by people too stupid to realize the severity of a lot of the new laws passed within the past 6 years (*cough* NDAA *cough*).
all i'm saying is, it's gonna reach a point where it starts to affect all of us in our daily lives, and by then it'll be too late to change anything short of an entire revolution...which is totally unnecessary if people just understood how much their rights are starting to be taken away now, internet streaming is small potatoes compared to the other shit they've been trying to do.
Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:00 PM
Saying "oh, well I lay out money for the Madlib, but I'm not gonna lay out money for EVERYTHING I want to listen to"... That's, again, living in a world where free content is just an entitlement, something that we all deserve, and the average citizen can just decide for himself whatever the fuck he wants to pay for. I mean, it's noble that you give dough to ST and all, but there was a world not too long ago where if a broke mother fucker wanted to listen to some shit, he went to the library, or listened to the radio, or borrowed some shit from a friend, or just waited and built up anticipation as he scraped some dollars together, and not everybody got to be a walking musical encyclopedia all the time. I mean, I understand the plight of a broke college kid all too well, and I'm sorry you feel like free content is one of the few bright spots in your life, but does that necessarily give you a license to just reach over the counter and steal some shit? And I can almost guarantee you that every last one of those smaller labels that you mentioned (ST included) are supporting piracy control in some form or another (morally at least), because the truth is it affects them TOO, those big companies are just the ones who have the money and influence to bring legislation around. The whole thing has warped the system so badly that we'll never be able to tell how much money has been lost, by the little man too.
As somebody in film school (a content creator), I'd think you'd have a personal stake in this as well. Imagine investing 50 grand or more of your own dough into a feature, finding some critical acclaim, only to have your sales gutted, redbox won't carry you, and netflix is waiting with it's hand out to fuck you. Every dollar counts, and maybe if content (music, film, tv) had ANY value to people anymore, they'd be willing to wait or pay for it. I'm as guilty as the next, so I understand that to a certain extent we, the people, have to be stopped by authority figures from destroying our own entertainment industries.
Maybe when you get out there into the job market though.
Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:40 PM
Imagine investing 50 grand or more of your own dough into a feature, finding some critical acclaim, only to have your sales gutted, redbox won't carry you, and netflix is waiting with it's hand out to fuck you. Every dollar counts, and maybe if content (music, film, tv) had ANY value to people anymore, they'd be willing to wait or pay for it.
i don't know if i necessarily agree with all of what you said. obviously, i want to be able to sustain a livelihood doing the things i do; however, coming from the standpoint of a consumer i understand the value of "under-selling" your product for the overall good of your namesake. Louis C.K. doesn't give two shits who pirates his stuff, he's confident enough that his stand-up specials are so good that you'll be willing to head on over to his website and just pay the $5 to own a copy of it. now he's an exception to the norm, but i believe a lot of the business models of film are headed towards that direction anyway, where content is no longer at the whim of large corporations and instead owned and distributed directly by the creators...so for people to think i act like i have some sense of entitlement is completely inaccurate. i did not torrent Yeezus, i went and paid for that piece of shit album--but that wasn't my point anyway. you also, again, seem to be misinterpreting my streaming habits that i worry about. i'm not pirating movies, i'm not illegally streaming content from some seedy foreign site, so those arguments you've presented are completely irrelevant to what i'm particularly talking about...my main fear is that i'll be prosecuted and reprimanded for something as banal as downloading vintage albums not on any sort of surviving label from the '70s and earlier for usage in my sample-based music; also, i download lots of acapellas to try and remix songs for practice in my production. given the language of the bill i referred to earlier, it states that that is technically not okay, and something i could do time for if they ever decided to nab me. i think that is unfair, given the fact that the original artists are usually fucking dead and if not so far removed from the original music they produced that its silly to think that at this point i'm taking food off their tables. am i taking $ out of a dead Glenn Miller's pockets, am i really hurting Roland Kirk by downloading his album on my laptop? i'm sure you collect vinyl, Swamp, does that make you guilty because whatever records you found digging ostensibly had $ going to the shopkeeper and NOT the original artist? the main point that i was trying to make by sharing the original article was not this "right to torrent freely" crap that you seem to be arguing against, it was showing how ridiculous its becoming to adhere to more and more restricting laws in the U.S. i'm NOT for illegal download of films like you think i am, but i don't think someone should do hard time in prison for borrowing their buddy's Netflix account password to watch American Dad on their TV...what's next? a year for jaywalking? $50,000 fines for littering? these laws they're trying to draft are just as hyperbolic as those two examples imo.
Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:39 PM
As far as are you really hurting Roland Kirk? I mean, not directly, or even remotely close to directly, but the point is that yeah, theoretically you are, because even though you may not have even known about the record otherwise, and even though neither you nor Roland Kirk's estate/ghost will ever really be aware of your transgression, if no streaming or .rar content existed, somebody still would be (IS) controlling the rights and royalties of these peoples' music. Maybe not the people who should be, but that's a whole different discussion. Used record sales is a different story too, because of proportion of purchased copies to existing copies. Yes, admittedly glenn miller's estate etc. is not getting my 7 dollars, but I'm not multiplying the copies of that glenn miller record exponentially and handing them out, as with mp3s spread via the internet. there is 1 (one) glenn miller record in my hands and at some point someone paid for it, and now it has passed to the shop owner, who also paid for it, who passes it to you, who pays for it whatever the market says. in this way crate digging is the more noble way for sure. In fact, that old Roland Kirk record that you bought from the bin has stimulated more economic activity in its long life than an itunes purchase could ever dream of, it's changed hands 2, 3, 4 times, each time most likely for cash.
BUT I was probably just ranting on in general and not specifically directed at you, and I do the shit too AND I've elaborated enough on my opinion anyway. the end.
- James Frank. likes this
Posted 08 August 2013 - 05:31 AM
and Fungas when you actually want to pull me up for something read my statement properly, do you know me well enough by person, to know if I already do something ? you don't what so ever.
I work with special needs kids and get them out of abusive homes and support them so that they can try to live a normal life with the community, I also fund raise to get cash to get deposits on buildings so we can open more kids homes, and when my Daughter is old enough I will foster as many kids as I can manage. I'm also going to make drum sample packs and with the money, put that towards more kids homes, with actual proof of where peoples money has gone. Then when I got that going here I'll get it going in another country, then the next and so on. Can't do it all on my own but I have no faith in other people to help, as they're always looking at what the other person is doing, people can always say what is wrong, but can never bring a solution to the table, or do it themselves CAN THEY FUNGAS they think they can sum someone up through a few lines written in a Hiphop forum!
So what do you do, how do you make a difference, whats you plan, who's life have you changed for the better.
Don't try and twist and manipulate what I've said, when you have no understanding of it, If I see an artist at a live show I give them £20 regardless, at least I know they will get a pretty dam good breakfast. And why the hell shouldn't I have the right to listen to a whole album before I part with my hard earned "I Owe you notes, how's it a conspiracy when it as blatant as a brick in the face and written on the money itself, don't blame me for the world being fucked up, Lets put it another way, how many of us make beats on here and have honest software, honest effect plug ins etc. Who smokes weed, who does graf and pays for their cans. who skateboards, by some people making up a rule and making it stand all of this is breaking the law, You find a wallet full of cash on a bus no one is around, only the driver, what do you do. You can lead a Jedi to his crystal but you can't stop him picking up the red one !
Posted 08 August 2013 - 07:26 AM
I've got two words for you. "Cognitive" and "dissonance".
Swampy, it's going to happen I wouldn't be alive otherwise, I've got my dot's connected give people too many dots and their minds will implode, trying to get other people to do the same instead of rolling over and accepting anything that is shoved down their throats, this world is like a ball being pushed down under water and held down, at some point that ball has to come back to the surface because it is in an unnatural state.
I also think all the "generation Y is going to change everything"-advocates forget that this generation does not only include strong progressive forces, but also strong conservative and nationalist forces. The crisis polarized in both ways.
Posted 08 August 2013 - 09:29 AM
that old Roland Kirk record that you bought from the bin has stimulated more economic activity in its long life than an itunes purchase could ever dream of, it's changed hands 2, 3, 4 times, each time most likely for cash.
that's a good point, man. it was nice debating with you
- SwampThing likes this
Posted 08 August 2013 - 10:51 AM
- SwampThing likes this
Posted 08 August 2013 - 03:10 PM
- gEEchieDan likes this
Posted 08 August 2013 - 03:38 PM
Posted 09 August 2013 - 05:06 AM
- James Frank. likes this
0 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users