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#1 cr0n

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 02:58 AM

after listening to a lot of mixes of the original music that producers from all over the rapping/dj world from people like j dilla and madlib and others i've been pondering... are these people just taking credit for others people's music? is that why whenever somebody posts links to original material sampled or asks a question of what an original sample is of is wrong?

i think that the persons should be required to like... source the material they use when they sample. that would be good because then it would expose people to a lot more music that isn't as popular is it was or would promote music that's around that people just don't listen to.

am i the only one who thinks this? there's a lot of amazing music that these mix tapes expose and shouldn't be hidden. i don't know, i'm really ... uh, indesposed right now and i'm just curious what other people think on this subject.

#2 Drums

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 04:18 AM

after listening to a lot of mixes of the original music that producers from all over the rapping/dj world from people like j dilla and madlib and others i've been pondering... are these people just taking credit for others people's music? is that why whenever somebody posts links to original material sampled or asks a question of what an original sample is of is wrong?

i think that the persons should be required to like... source the material they use when they sample. that would be good because then it would expose people to a lot more music that isn't as popular is it was or would promote music that's around that people just don't listen to.

am i the only one who thinks this? there's a lot of amazing music that these mix tapes expose and shouldn't be hidden. i don't know, i'm really ... uh, indesposed right now and i'm just curious what other people think on this subject.


alot of people that do beats and mixes claim that the shit they find is their one. i can see why. it's about the hunt for the sounds that's half the work sometimes. especially in these days when most of the obvious shit already been used. i mean sometimes when cats like madlib do a beat it's all about finding the stuff that nobody before has found or thought about sampling. take meat grinder for example. when i first heard that i didn't think he just looped something from beginning to end, but then i found out that that was exactly what he'd done. i find that with alot of with madlib beats. i don't know how stones throw does it, but i doubt they clear the samples. albums like madvillainy and the quasimoto stuff could never been released if they did that. but at the same time i can see your point. of course they are stealing somebody else's work but they make it something new. even if they only loop a certain part of a song and doesn't do anything with it. they put it in a new context. i don't see anything wrong with that. there's producers out there with alot of records that can't make a good beat. i've heard mighty mi got a vast library collection but he can't make good beats.

#3 j303

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 06:01 AM

mighty mi back in 96 - 98 was outting out some crazy beats....

#4 nex242

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 07:12 AM

of course they are stealing somebody else's work but they make it something new. even if they only loop a certain part of a song and doesn't do anything with it. they put it in a new context. i don't see anything wrong with that.


Yep, I perfectly agree. :mellow:

The understanding what makes out a musician may be another key to answer this question. I have been discussing this issue with rather conservative peeps so often and they are always like "You gotta play an instrument to be a real musician." :D

Even if it makes a huge difference how producers or DJs work, in the end they also express themselves through their music -- in their very own way, even if it is a simple loop. IMO people need to accept using samples in an artistic way may look completely different from picking up a traditional instrument, but if used creatively, the results are comparable, which is an expression of the particular musician.

Nevertheless, I get the point of the initial question as well. Even I was thinking in that direction when I heard some of the original material used for Donuts. But in the sense I described before, I think the Donuts pieces are chopped and crafted together in truly unique and skillful way. This is why you can feel Dilla's imprint so strongly in there.

And sometimes a single loop is all you need to get wild. Some of Primo's greatest moments are based on rather simple loops, like the one he used for Code Of The Streets. :D

#5 Drums

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 09:15 AM

Yep, I perfectly agree. :D

The understanding what makes out a musician may be another key to answer this question. I have been discussing this issue with rather conservative peeps so often and they are always like "You gotta play an instrument to be a real musician." ;)


yeah. it's getting really old. i mean does an artist need to use a brush to make an artwork? hell no! there's different methods to everything and thank god for that.

#6 shroombudagwa

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 09:28 AM

after listening to a lot of mixes of the original music that producers from all over the rapping/dj world from people like j dilla and madlib and others i've been pondering... are these people just taking credit for others people's music? is that why whenever somebody posts links to original material sampled or asks a question of what an original sample is of is wrong?

i think that the persons should be required to like... source the material they use when they sample. that would be good because then it would expose people to a lot more music that isn't as popular is it was or would promote music that's around that people just don't listen to.

am i the only one who thinks this? there's a lot of amazing music that these mix tapes expose and shouldn't be hidden. i don't know, i'm really ... uh, indesposed right now and i'm just curious what other people think on this subject.



um well 2 reasons for not telliong the truth about where the samples come from

!. legal issues
2. the original music is wack.


alot of the time producers put a lot of time in so that the original source is basically nothing like the finshed product. I know thats true for me.

#7 shroombudagwa

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 09:40 AM

I think the Donuts pieces are chopped and crafted together in truly unique and skillful way. This is why you can feel Dilla's imprint so strongly in there.

yup so in essacnce while the base elements of Dillas work cam from someone else he twisted it and made it his own.

Sampling is cool, even if it is a single loop, would you have enjoyed the sounds of Meatgrinders original if Madlib never crafted it?
Doubht it.

Point is with out sampling, Im not sure I would have fallen in love with James Brown, Jazz in general, Classical, everything, it exposed me to all different kinds of music and made me appreciate all types.

I think sampling is essential, build off the old.
A great artists creates a better artists steals it.

Sampling has been done forever, in every artform, esp writing. You ever see that South Park Episode where every idea has already been done by the Simpsons? and then at the end of the episode they realize that all of the Simpson ideas had come form somewhere else?


;)

#8 neologism

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 10:58 AM

Sampling has been done forever, in every artform, esp writing. You ever see that South Park Episode where every idea has already been done by the Simpsons? and then at the end of the episode they realize that all of the Simpson ideas had come form somewhere else?

that true.

but what i dont get about sampling is how some songs have to be credited and some dont. the song run by ghostface feat jadakiss, features a sample from the hell's belle's soundtrack, rza produced it if im not correct but he does not credit les baxter. but then you hear some song that everyone knows what drums it is, but theres no credit to it, why?

wolf im sure you know the answer.

#9 hot_cocoa

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 12:39 PM

i belive the main reason people dont credit there samples is probably legal issues, maybe the artist dosnt mind the way there music was cut,flipped and shown in a new light, but the majority of record labels (who are out for cash) would sue the pants off the producer the moment they realized there signed artist was getting sampled. By not giving credit its not like the producer is in turn taking credit for making the music, anyone who is into hip hop is familiar with the art of sampling and anyone who is seriously into music can pick out the sample and recognize the original artist. Also if the original artist heard there work sampled im sure they would appreciate the new twist on an old song.

#10 shroombudagwa

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 02:41 PM

yah maybe its a way of staying under the radar.

#11 cr0n

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 03:22 PM

my original drive to write this post was because the original music that is sampled is sometimes AMAZING, and sometimes it is a bit wack. imagine, digging through all those crates the producers must find some amazing music that have been lost forever... music that i would be more then interested in listening to, dig? i guess what i'm trying to say is that CRATE DIGGAS SHOULD SHARE THEM CRATES, you know?

also, i think the phrase "music producer" should be changed. none of the actual music is made by these producers, they cut and paste other people's music to make it their own. i get that and i feel that, but they are still using other people's music. they should be called "music editors." if my music was being used as a rap beat i'd probably be down with it, but i would definitely want some credit at least (if not some $$).

#12 hot_cocoa

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 03:26 PM

if my music was being used as a rap beat i'd probably be down with it, but i would definitely want some credit at least (if not some $$).



eh all you did was arrange notes in a certain order, a combination that may have been used before and if not would be used sometime in the future idk if that deserves cash maybe if they sampled like 2 minutes of your song

#13 cr0n

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 04:02 PM

eh all you did was arrange notes in a certain order, a combination that may have been used before and if not would be used sometime in the future idk if that deserves cash maybe if they sampled like 2 minutes of your song



woah woah woah, all you did was arrange some notes? if somebody is sampling my music, then they are taking:

the order of the notes
the rhythm of the notes
the recording of the notes (which costs LOTS of $$$)

so you're saying people who actually write and play music are more simple and dumbed down music then the beats that are made from it? you, my friend, need to stop listening to so much hip hop and listen to more music...

#14 shroombudagwa

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 05:17 PM

woah woah woah, all you did was arrange some notes? if somebody is sampling my music, then they are taking:

the order of the notes
the rhythm of the notes
the recording of the notes (which costs LOTS of $$$)

so you're saying people who actually write and play music are more simple and dumbed down music then the beats that are made from it? you, my friend, need to stop listening to so much hip hop and listen to more music...


not nessacarily,
The order of the notes, not normally for me. I sample like hin-zzle as its my only way to get sounds, but I chop the sample up into each note. I then rearrange it, add in other sounds...

the rythem,
again not nessacerily, I may change the rhytem and the tempo completely.

THe recording,
I will give you that, alot of what i choose to sample depends on what the original recording sounds like, if I like how it sounds I choose it, if not I find another. But again tho, i may do stuff to manipulate that sound (fliter it, timestretch. mix it with other sounds) so that it no longer sounds like or identical to any other recording. At that point I feel its mine.

Look a rarely if ever just loop stuff, I spend an average of 12 hours on a song, easily.

check my myspace page if you want to hear what Im up to.
Currently I got a song sampled from rod stewart, Van Morrison, Juan Atkins and SOme 50's shit I cant remeber, each one I can honestly say is nothing like the original anymore and I feel it is mine and I got it all from sampling.

#15 Kuraden

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 05:27 PM

Nobody hates on a photographer for taking a picture of some shit that's already there. It's what and how he photographs is what counts, I don't think it's any different when it comes to sampling.

#16 DJ Projexion

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 05:51 PM

If anything, sampling breathes new life into these old joints and serves it up fresh for the new generations to enjoy. It also gives them a reason to dig deep and find these lost gems themselves. Beat sampling has been integrated with hip hop music, you can't deny that it's some next level futuristic type shit.

#17 godzilla

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 07:41 PM

This just in, jazz musician steals lick from another, is original still fresh?
yes
should said jazz musician have to pay royalties on the lick?
Nope, its been changed and probably put into a different context.
Wait, doesn't this happen in all types of music?
yes, even classical composers are notorious for borrowing chord voicings or signature orchestration techniques to pay homage to the greats before them.

#18 cr0n

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 08:41 PM

i dont know about the jazz thing, dude. i dont think thats really a great analogy because in jazz it's using themes more then the exact recording.

i'm not talking about every single rap beat out there saying that they are completely ripping off the originals, i mean there are definitely ways to cut other people's music up to make your own shit. thats tight i dont have any problem with that. i'm not trying to hate on hip hop producers completely, but i think that the actual music sampled should at least be sourced... its only fair.

#19 godzilla

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 08:51 PM

i dont know about the jazz thing, dude. i dont think thats really a great analogy because in jazz it's using themes more then the exact recording.

i'm not talking about every single rap beat out there saying that they are completely ripping off the originals, i mean there are definitely ways to cut other people's music up to make your own shit. thats tight i dont have any problem with that. i'm not trying to hate on hip hop producers completely, but i think that the actual music sampled should at least be sourced... its only fair.

its not learning the theme, you go buy an omnibook and you play along with Charlie Parker solos so that you can use the same rhythyms and notes over the same chords, you just eventually have to change things a bit if you want to be recognised.

also if a composer doesn't play his own music does that mean he isn't a composer? I guess I'm so defensive cause I get tired of people claiming people like Blink 182 are better musicians just because they have guitars in their hands, what isn't considered though when you take this view is the amount of depth in the music and hip hop often is much more complex from a purely musical standpoint than tha guitar shit.

#20 cr0n

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 01:24 AM

its not learning the theme, you go buy an omnibook and you play along with Charlie Parker solos so that you can use the same rhythyms and notes over the same chords, you just eventually have to change things a bit if you want to be recognised.

also if a composer doesn't play his own music does that mean he isn't a composer? I guess I'm so defensive cause I get tired of people claiming people like Blink 182 are better musicians just because they have guitars in their hands, what isn't considered though when you take this view is the amount of depth in the music and hip hop often is much more complex from a purely musical standpoint than tha guitar shit.



you're listening to the wrong "guitar shit" my man. just because there's written music so that other people can playy along to jazz doesn't mean it isn't hard to write or originate. and ... uh, about the composer thing, in order to be a composer you need to compose. i don't know... i think this may just be an opinion thing. i love music in all of it's forms, but it just seems wrong for producers to take sole credit for using other people's music to make their beats sound nice.

#21 DJ Projexion

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 05:56 AM

Well, what about "cover" songs? That's pretty much taking someone else's work and passing it off as your own, sometimes even selling crazy albums off that song. Say what you want, it is what it is.

#22 hot_cocoa

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 09:44 AM

woah woah woah, all you did was arrange some notes? if somebody is sampling my music, then they are taking:

the order of the notes
the rhythm of the notes
the recording of the notes (which costs LOTS of $$$)

so you're saying people who actually write and play music are more simple and dumbed down music then the beats that are made from it? you, my friend, need to stop listening to so much hip hop and listen to more music...

misinterpreted and for the most part i agree with you, but im just saying that people who get there work sampled dont really deserve any money

#23 godzilla

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 09:51 AM

you're listening to the wrong "guitar shit" my man.

most guitar players don't know shit about music and need to take their dicks out of their mouth :huh: Even jazz guitarists for the most part are overly cocky as to their musical knowledge, thats why most of them never get past the pentatonic scale.

#24 shroombudagwa

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 09:19 PM

look guys, i think we can agree to disagree, I hear what Cron is saying, but as far as sampled artists being recognized all the time out of pricple that is not possible due to the legalities of sampling.

Frommy own point of view, I would much rather have a beatsmith take a sample and not reckognize the original than have me never hear a real heater.

would you rather therebe no TROY, Bonita Applebum...?

#25 godzilla

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 10:53 PM

look guys, i think we can agree to disagree, I hear what Cron is saying, but as far as sampled artists being recognized all the time out of pricple that is not possible due to the legalities of sampling.

Frommy own point of view, I would much rather have a beatsmith take a sample and not reckognize the original than have me never hear a real heater.

would you rather therebe no TROY, Bonita Applebum...?

man I'm just kidding sort of, saying stuff to piss people off.

#26 Drums

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 03:04 AM

about the term producer. i often have a problem with that term because i don't see myself as a producer. i am a musician even though i'm not schooled in any instrument (except guitar, but that was way back). i do play synthesizers and keyboard probably more than i sample, but often i do both in the same beat. anyway. i'm not a producer. david axelrod was a producer. i've thought about why that term has been so accepted in the world of hip-hop. there's probably some that really take on the producer role, but most of us just make a beat and submit that to rappers or singers. is it because we understand and helps the artist find the sound that they are looking for? because, that is most of the time the producers role.

what do you think?

#27 neologism

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 08:33 AM

i always said producers are the ones who make the music, or resposible for the music.




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